Will I Be Able to Teach About Capitalism Anymore?

Thirty-two legislators co-sponsored this bill prohibiting all commercial logos in schools.  Well, why not?  The private sector is disappearing from our state anyway.  I guess our marketing class and our school store will be next.   Not sure if I'll still be able teach about capitalism.  Maybe I can just reminisce about it in my history class.  Who'd know that we won the Cold War?   

Comments

[Jon Harrison]

You know, Curt, I frankly am not so happy with corporations worming their way into the schools. But I object even more to Montpelier getting involved. Let each district and its citizens decide what they want to do. The nanny-staters in the legislature shouldn't be involved. They just don't trust the people, unfortunately.

[Charity]

They did this in Burlington a few years ago in response to General Dynamics giving the students free books with a sticker inside that had the student's name and a tiny GD logo.

A group of parents didn't want their kids to associate "people who make bombs" with people who give out free books.

Now all corporate logos are banned here, but GD's free book program was grandfathered to appease the people (like me) who complained about the school refusing free books.

[Jon Harrison]

Interesting story. If the people of Burlington want to turn down free books, that's their business. I object to the state legislature telling them what they should do, that's all.

[Jason]

Some people's integrity isn't for sale.

I know plenty of researchers who will not use DOD equipment (mostly supercomputers).

[Curtis Hier]

Yeah, Charity, I don't have as big a problem with it if the decision is made locally.

At my school, the National Guard offered to donate $900 to our athletic programs if they could set up a tent at football games and put up a banner. Our board said no, but I saw the National Guard tent at a Poultney game, so I guess their board said yes. ($900 may be a bigger deal to a smaller school.) Our American Legion post sent a letter to our school reminding them that they sponsor scholarships and Boys/Girls State, and that they very much believe in the National Guard's mission. Not sure how it will work out next fall, but local politics should sort it out.

I don't want to get into a discussion of the politics of recruiting, but it's similar to Pepsi being willing to donate a scoreboard and local businesses having signs on centerfield fences.

Now, what about yearbook advertising and athletic program advertising? My school has a good relationship with local businesses. The wording of the bill seems not to be aimed at local businesses, but how do we distinguish? Better to let schools decide locally. If there's a problem with the policy or an exception to be made, it can be done in less than a month by a school board.

[Gordon Smith]

The bill is ridiculous - TAKE THEIR MONEY. Have Pepsi bid against Coke for the rights to the football stadium sign - use the money to fund the sports programs. What possible, truly negative, influence will it cause? Mr. Harrison, I very much have enjoyed your posts and ripostes on this site, so I am interested in why you are concerned about corporations 'worming' their way into schools. Certainly, I don't want books sponsored by the folks who produce the 'Grand Theft Auto' video game, but there seems that we could have sponsor opportunities to fund sports and/or arts and other programs that fall outside the 3 R's.

[Jon Harrison]

Oh, you and I are pretty much in agreement, Gordon. I'm very much in favor of corporations sponsoring sports teams, etc. What I don't particularly like is corporate advertising right in the classroom or on closed circuit TV or whatever they have in schools these days. The students are a captive audience; because of that fact I don't want them subjected to corporate advertising. But business donating money for the football team or the band or the computer club, in return for some recognition of their good corporate citizenship - that's great stuff. The more the merrier.

[Mister Guy]

Thanx for coming down on the side of big corporations using public property to advertise to kids Mr. Hier...what a surprise...

[Curtis Hier]

I came down on the side of school boards.

[Mister Guy]

Keep spinning Mr. Hier. Either it's a good idea or a bad idea...no matter who implements it.

[Curtis Hier]

"Either it's a good idea or a bad idea...no matter who implements it."

Wow! That's an amazing statement.

I guess you'd have told Jefferson and Hamilton to cool it over the issue of federalism. You'd have said, "Easy, boys. It doesn't really matter!"

My point is that school boards can judge it on a case-by-case basis, and they can adjust their policies more easily to reflect local values.

Your friends at the NEA thought Act 82 was a big usurpation of local control. I saw it differently, because I thought it empowers local voters. But you must think the NEA is really stupid for caring at all about local control.

And you know that underfunded mandate called NCLB? You know why we can't do anything about it? Because it comes from hundreds of miles away in Washington, where we only have 3 representatives.

[Mister Guy]

You guys always intentionally overstate the issue of federalism. The Articles of Confederation failed, in part, because of a lack of a strong, central govt..

I don't have any "friends" at the NEA that I'm aware of...lol... The two vote mandate is just another gimmick. Last time I checked, I don't remember the U.S. Constitution requiring a different kind of vote in order to raise a tax rather than lowering one.

And you know who pushed the baloney plan called NCLB in the first place? Your beloved GOP.

[Gordon Smith]

Thank you, Jon. Yes, we are in agreement.
Mr. Guy, NCLB exists because George Bush wouldn't stand up to Ted Kennedy. Please don't try to tell us that Bill Clinton wouldn't have signed it.

[Edward Charles Ponzi Jr]

"Have Pepsi bid against Coke"

Jeez -- you guys need to think big.

Have Prozac bid against Ritalin.

-- the winner becomes COMPULSORY!

[Jon Harrison]

On the issue of federalism, I fear it is you who don't quite grasp its meaning, Mr. Guy. A balanced federalism, such as existed in this country from 1789-1933, did not preclude a strong central government. The problem since 1933 has been that the federal power has completely eclipsed the power of the states and localities.

There are times when federal power should wax - times like the Civil War, the Great Depression and World War II. But under normal circumstances, a balanced federalism is to be preferred.

[Lani Duke]

People who object to using DOD technology should give up the Internet. Unfortunately, it often even takes a war to boost technology in new directions. The Red Cross grew out of war.

[jason]

I probably should have said "they won't write for a DOD grant". They are selective. I suppose they are ok with the internet due to ARPANET not being a weapon or being developed for any particular weapon.

[Curtis Hier]

Jason,

I just don't think because a bunch of students sell ads for their yearbooks that their "integrity is for sale." Now I know the bill doesn't really address that particular practice, but it's philosophically (and perhaps legally) quite the same.

The first amendment requires a separation between church and state (therefore school). Where in American history is the idea that we must have separatation of commercial enterprise and state (therefore school)?

I think it's just rattling around in the minds of 32 people in the Legislature who are unwilling to focus on real problems.

[jason]

I was refering to the free General Dynamics books.

I don't know much about the bill's origins. If I had to guess, I would say that it probably originates from problems with food choices.

[Mister Guy]

LOL...yea, everyone knows that NCLB was Teddy Kennedy's idea in the first place...him being a big Texan and all. From what I can tell, you have no integrity whatsoever Mr. Smith.

Ah, I see Mr. Harrison, it was all FDR's fault...sure...

[Jon Harrison]

Glibness is your downfall once again, Mr. Guy, Saying that the balance between the federal government and the states went haywire after 1933 is not the same as saying it was all FDR's fault. That is not what I said.

You really should think about curbing your desire to speak to every point, or rather, to speak to those points that you know little or nothing about. It's no sin not knowing some things, and being willing to keep silent on just those things is a positive virtue. This is not to say that we all don't welcome your input in those areas you do know something about -- even when your views are warped by your foolish ideological predilections and predjudices. I'm sure most of us do. I know I do.

I must say also that I have to side largely with you in the "Who's responsible for NCLB debate?" I'm afraid Mr. Bush wanted the bill very badly. He and Teddy worked hand-in-glove on it.

[Jon Harrison]

To Charity's and Lani Duke's interesting observations: I find it rich that some Burlington parents made a stink about General Dynamics. If they're so enraged about GD "making bombs," why don't they withhold a portion of their income taxes in protest? Show me you're willing to spend time in federal prison for your moral views, and then perhaps I'll respect them.

[Mister Guy]

Of course it's the same thing...you guys *love* to rail against the New Deal...you remember all those popular, sucessful programs that you hate so much, don't you? Facts and hidden motivations that become exposed are your (and this website's in general) downfall.

"It's no sin not knowing some things, and being willing to keep silent on just those things is a positive virtue."

So much for that open debate that you claim to love so much.

"even when your views are warped by your foolish ideological predilections and predjudices."

I could (and have) said the same thing about you and your kind Mr. Harrison. I'm sorry if the truth hurts, but there you have it.

[jason]

"Show me you're willing to spend time in federal prison for your moral views, and then perhaps I'll respect them."

So if conservatives and free market types are so enraged at wealth distribution, maybe they should withhold a portion of their income taxes and spend time in prison?

Maybe then they would get some respect?

[Gordon Smith]

Mr. Guy you know nothing about me, yet you question my integrity? I have never called someone a name in any post, because I consider myself a civil debater, but you have no qualms about calling anybody who disagrees with YOU a 'hack'. I will admit that sometimes my posts are blinded by my biases, and yes, GWB loves NCLB. I was ready to stop reading Tiger, but that's what you want - you just want to annoy all of us until we quit. No, I will continue to follow the Tiger because most of the posters here want what's best for VT - I will just ignore you.